» Welcome Guest
[ Log In :: Register ]


Page 1 of 212>>

[ Track This Topic :: Email This Topic :: Print this topic ]

reply to topic new topic new poll
Topic: The Royal Mascot, Is it Scotland?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
 Post Number: 1
David Yeagley Search for posts by this member.
Comanche Patriot
Avatar



Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 30196
Joined: Sep. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 11 2007,22:04  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I am about to conclude that Scotland is the Mascot of all things British.  The Saxons, the Britons, the Welsh, the Irish, the whole works on the Island.  I'm beginning to think that the "Indian" of the isles is the Scotsman.   I mean this in some very practical ways, but I need instruction here, Scotsmen.

The Tartan:  whence cometh the original?  Is it not a cross?  Are not all tartans a variation of the cross?  

Is the tartan Scottish in origin?  MacCorkill's story is interesting, but doesn't really give me what I want.  I think the tartan is Christian, early Christian.  I have a notion it is Scottish.  

If this notion is remotely true, then Scots are the mascots of all things British.  The Indian of the isles.  It's true.  Blast ye, it's true!  

The 'King of England' sports a tartan.  Nothing is more "British."  We all know the history of the Black Watch, and who's carried the weight of battle.  But, the mascot thing.  I've never thought of it in this way before...

So, guide me along, mates.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 2
David Yeagley Search for posts by this member.
Comanche Patriot
Avatar



Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 30196
Joined: Sep. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 11 2007,22:07 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


A modern "Kenney" tartan.

I say it's all a cross, simply an extended cross pattern.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 3
Mark Winters Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 4530
Joined: Jul. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 12 2007,12:59 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

No.  No.  No.  Wrong on all thread counts.

The Tartan predates Christianity (But not God, you say?).

No. The Scots weren't the Indians of the northern "British Isles".  The Picts were, God rest those merry gentlefolk.  Once upon a time the Picts lived an idyllic life.  Then, out of the dark night, the Celts came west across a body of water (the English Channel), invaded, dominated and absorbed them into Celtic culture.  Some were absorbed by force, others coerced, while a few, when posed the question,"Join us or else", said, "Sure, why not?".  Then the Northmen came and did it again.  The resulting population took up the name Scot.  The Picts had their culture obliterated.  Cultural genocide, as it were.  Alas, remember the Pict.

Just think of it this way.  The Picts were the Indians and the Celts were the Cowboys.  There, that should make it easy.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 4
David Yeagley Search for posts by this member.
Comanche Patriot
Avatar



Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 30196
Joined: Sep. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 12 2007,21:56 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

But, I thought everyone wanted to play Indian.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 5
David Yeagley Search for posts by this member.
Comanche Patriot
Avatar



Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 30196
Joined: Sep. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 12 2007,21:59 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Were did you get that the Tartans predate Christianity?  I know Greeks and Romans, and even some Persians, wore the celt.  But I know of no Tartan patterns, nor any function of identity in the woven material.  They were all solid, to my knowledge.

Do we have any clothing of the Pics preserved in drawing or painting or literary discription.  I wot not that ye should.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 6
Mark Winters Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 4530
Joined: Jul. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 13 2007,00:59 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I defer to Mac.  But I seem to remember that a certain Scythian female burial found on the Mongolian Steps contained a scrap of what looked like, to me, a tartan.  A checked/crosshatched woolen cloth anyway.  It dated to about 2500.  I read this transcript to refresh my memory, with no mention of pattern specifically, but I seem to remember that when I was watching the show, and the wool fabric was pictured, that a distinct square pattern was visible.  I could be imagining things but I doubt it.  I mean, how could I be imagining things?  I think some historians make the Scythian/Celt association, even to the point of postulating that there may be a link to the Cornish from the Scythians.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2517siberian.html
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 7
David Yeagley Search for posts by this member.
Comanche Patriot
Avatar



Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 30196
Joined: Sep. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 13 2007,11:10 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Quote
NARRATOR: Few garments this ancient have been found so well preserved. The Ice Maiden's thigh-high riding boots were still supple and only mildly damaged. Her dress, woven from sheeps wool and camel hair, was held at the waist by a braided cord with tassels. It was banded in three colors—the red dye derived from insects, and delicate maroon edged this priceless sheer blouse. Even after 2400 years in the tomb, the clothing needed remarkably little restoration.

POLOSMAK: This costume is one of the oldest pieces of female clothing ever found from a nomadic society. Nothing has to be reconstructed. We have a complete outfit right down to the belt. It's an amazingly rare find in the history of archaeology.


Nothing about plaide here.  

Quote
POLOSMAK: She was dressed exactly like a man. This shows that certain women, probably young and unmarried, could be warriors, literally Amazons. It didn't offend the principles of nomadic society.

NARRATOR: The Ice Maiden had no weapons with her, so it's doubtful she was a warrior. But her elaborate burial did suggest she was a woman of importance. Now, removed from her grave, her fate lay in Natalia's hands.


Or here.  By the way, I mention the Ice Maiden in "The State of the Dead," in Altered States.  

As for horses, my mother said when she was a little girl, she remembered a Comanche man who was burried at Beaver Creek, (Oklahoma), and they burried his horse with him, right on the banks of the creek.   It's a warrior thing...

I faintly remember seeing any PBS thing on TV.  All I remember is that man, found first, had reddish blonde hair.  That freaked everyone out.  The ice mummies weren't Oriental, but Caucasian.  

So, what do we know of the Picts? only that they supposedly were in to mass tattoos?  I checked out this site pretty carefully.  Several 'romanticized' illustrations...
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 8
RoseLadyPDX Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 1000
Joined: Oct. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 14 2007,14:25 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I have to side with Mark on this one, with respect to the Picts being the indigineous people of what we now know as Scotland.  The Scotti were actually a Celtic tribe that came to Britain via Ireland, originally.  

I also defer to Mac on this topic, however.


--------------
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye.
   Miss Piggy, US Muppet and Pig
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 9
David Yeagley Search for posts by this member.
Comanche Patriot
Avatar



Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 30196
Joined: Sep. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 14 2007,17:39 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I have obviously no argument about the Picts.  I am concerned, however, about the origin of the tartan, the cross patterns we call "plaide."
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 10
Mark Winters Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 4530
Joined: Jul. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 14 2007,18:51 Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

I find it interesting that your link to the Picts lead to a link showing a possible link between Iberia and the Picts of North Britain.  This goes back to my "theory" of the Basques and their ancestors, the Solutreans.   Not only might the Picts be of Iberian origin but so may some eastern tribes of N. America, according to the latest theories of archaeology.  

On another "interesting" note, the peoples of western Sicily may be of Iberian ancestry also.  The Sicani, who may have originally come from Iberia (ancestral Basque lands) mixed with a migration of Aeneas's Trojan family diaspora.  Some went on to found Roman culture, as they and the Latins melded, but some stayed in Sicily melding with the Sicani to form a new race called the Ilymians (Ilymoi) of NW Sicily, a population exempt from taxation by Rome because of it's alleged Trojan ancestry.  

I know the transcript didn't say "plaide" but when watching I'm almost positive that the visuals of the Ice Maiden's fabric cried out tartan pattern.  I seem to remember from other sources that the Celts and/or Scythians migrated to this region as well, there suspected point of origin being N. of the Danube.  But then, where didn't they migrate to?

But I'm not serious about the above, as Mac well knows.  I just like to tease him a bit, in a congenial sort of way.  I mean I'm just putting to good use this over active imagination that I've been "blessed" with.  My ultimate point being, what's really unusual about who migrating when to where and why for?  Everybody was doing it.  I'm hoping that civilization means that everybody stays where they're at now and no more mass migrating.  Let's call where it's at now final, for the sake of posterity and all concerned.  It's either that or turn back the hands of time and stoke up the old wars.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
18 replies since Mar. 11 2007,22:04 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >

[ Track This Topic :: Email This Topic :: Print this topic ]


Page 1 of 212>>
reply to topic new topic new poll

» Quick Reply The Royal Mascot
iB Code Buttons
You are posting as:

Do you wish to enable your signature for this post?
Do you wish to enable emoticons for this post?
Track this topic
View All Emoticons
View iB Code