David Yeagley is the great-great-grandson of Comanche leader Bad Eagle. 
There are no Bible prophecies that address American Indians. The nations of the Americas are not noted, named, neither negated. They simply don’t exist–for all practical purposes in the unveiling of inspired Judeo-Christian scripture.
Many nations and civilizations of the world are not mentioned by name in the Bible, some of ancient profound historical import, such as the Chinese empire, the Hindu world, the Aztecs, Mayans, or the Incas. All that comprises the Biblical narrative are the nations and empires from Mesopotamia westward, as the Fertile Crescent, Europe, and, as Seventh-day Adventists believe, the United States. That is the simple fact. The faith went westward. Truth aimed its arrows at the setting sun.
But, American Indian nations, none of which evolved into the imperial stage–since no Indian nation ever entertained such a concept, have yet special distinction amongst the other unmentionables of the Biblical world. There are intimations of our supposed non-existence. In the commentary generated by history and prophecy students, there are statements that directly deny the existence of Indians. This is curious.
Comanche Indians, ca. 1891, Ft. Sill area. My ‘relatives.’ Tell me they didn’t exist. Tell me I don’t feel their spirit. I will tell you Christians have erred, and erred unnecessarily.
Adventist understanding of prophecy (esp. Revelation 13:11), which was not entirely original, understood that America, the United States of America, was a nation that evolved out of the wilderness, out of a land not inhabited, as opposed to the other nations and empires of prophecy all of which were built on previous nations and civilizations. This understanding is put forth rather clearly by Ellen G. White herself, in The Great Controversy (1888), in chapter 25, entitled “God’s Law Immutable” (in some editions “America in Prophecy”), pp. 433-450. There are some words in this chapter that I, as an Indian, find difficult and offensive at face value. I cite them here because I know many Indians find the whole Christian intrusion unacceptable.
According to Adventist understanding, America is identifiable because of the fact that it rose to power after 1798, a key point in the largest historical prophecy in scripture, Daniel 7:25, the very prophecy actually duplicated in Revelation 13:5. In describing the rise of America, according to Revelation, E. G. White herself affirms the American identity, ensconcing her words with the descriptions of others:
…the beast with lamblike horns was seen “coming up out of the earth.” Instead of overthrowing other powers to establish itself, the nation thus represented must arise in territory previously unoccupied and grow up gradually and peacefully. It could not, then, arise among the crowded and struggling nationalities of the Old World–that turbulent sea of “peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.” It must be sought in the Western Continent.
What nation of the New World was in 1798 rising into power, giving promise of strength and greatness, and attracting the attention of the world? The application of the symbol admits of no question. One nation, and only one, meets the specifications of this prophecy; it points unmistakably to the United States of America. Again and again the thought, almost the exact words, of the sacred writer has been unconsciously employed by the orator and the historian in describing the rise and growth of this nation. The beast was seen “coming up out of the earth;” and, according to the translators, the word here rendered “coming up” literally signifies “to grow or spring up as a plant.” And, as we have seen, the nation must arise in territory previously unoccupied. A prominent writer, describing the rise of the United States, speaks of “the mystery of her coming forth from vacancy,” and says: “Like a silent seed we grew into empire.”–G. A. Townsend, The New World Compared With the Old, page 462. A European journal in 1850 spoke of the United States as a wonderful empire, which was “emerging,” and “amid the silence of the earth daily adding to its power and pride.” –The Dublin Nation. Edward Everett, in an oration on the Pilgrim founders of this nation, said: “Did they look for a retired spot, inoffensive for its obscurity, and safe in its remoteness, where the little church of Leyden might enjoy the freedom of conscience? Behold the mighty regions over which, in peaceful conquest, . . . they have borne the banners of the cross!”–Speech delivered at Plymouth, Massachusetts, Dec. 22, 1824, page 11.
Note those key phrases about America: 1) Instead of overthrowing other powers to establish itself; 2) grow up … peacefully; 3) “the mystery of her [America] coming forth from vacancy”; “amid the silence of the earth”; 4) Behold the mighty regions over which, in peaceful conquest, . . . they [American Pilgrims and descendents] have borne the banners of the cross!”
I’m afraid this is all terribly unfortunate, if completely human, and exemplary of the adage, “history is written by the conquerors.” These lovely, poetic depictions completely ignore not only the existence of Indian nations, but of the horrid price of blood which the Pilgrim descendents paid in “peaceful conquest”!
Now this may all suit the glorious vision of the White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, his Manifest Destiny, and whatever other vision he has of himself, that drove him to do as he did, to endure what he did, and to win what he won. But, I really don’t see that it is necessary to viciously ignore the very inhabitants decimated to achieve that vision. There is no spiritual incumbency that dictates such insult to injury.
Ancient Israel never pretended the Cana’anite cults did not exist. If Indians are to be regarded as savage heathen and incorrigibly lost, still the language of the Christian conqueror needn’t pretend his kingdom was built on silk pillows and “silence.” What is the advantage of such a traditional, quite unbiblical angle? While ancient Israel was not to make mention of the heathen gods of the Cana’anites (Exodus 23:13), Israel was never to forget that the land she rested on was wrested from others–by the power of her God. If the Pilgrim descendents are pleased to honor their God by not consulting the eagle spirits, they could do with a more ink on the Indian story perhaps.
Perhaps, however, such an angle would disturb the WASP vision of greatness. Perhaps this 19th century prophetic view is actually the basis for an American Collective Unconscious that simply can’t figure the Indian into the American story as it deserves to be. Perhaps this vision, this fractured reality, accounts for why all the professional conservative politicians and talkers simply have nothing to say about Indians. The professional talkers have occasional disdain, and apparently that is their take on the absent Indian. They acknowledge the Indian’s existence in a condemnatory, disdainful way. That is their modern commentary generated on the historical, biblical precedent in American Christianity. Indians don’t exist, but, if acknowledged in reality, they must be condemned as unworthy.
I’m afraid that’s the tenor of tradition. The American Christian above all cannot bear the thought of flaw in his vision, or fault in his history.
I say he simply needn’t dramatize it. Many nations are not mentioned in the Bible. That the unmentionable ones he bumped into happen to cost a lot of blood should not disturb his conscience too terribly–to the point that he has to condemn the Indian if he even acknowledges the Indian’s presence today.
The history of the American Indian and the White Anglo-Saxon Protestant is either a great evil, a train wreck, or a wondrous encounter. Perhaps it is a mix of all three. There is strength, weakness, triumph, and disaster. Indians are the only people the white American ever encountered that weren’t just dying to be white Americans. That must irritate the very soul of white America. But, it shouldn’t. It only means the Indian is as strong and independent in spirit as the white man. That’s the end of that.
The Indian does have to watch carefully those old treaties, for the white man tends to trample on them in his passion for development. But the white man has shown the Indian honors that no other conquered people have ever been shown by their conquerors. Indian names and images abound in the land, on the land, on the rivers, the mountains, the valleys, the states, the cities; and the white man even named his beloved sports teams after Indians. The white man put the Indian image on his own almight dollar. I call that honor.
It remains for the Indian now to accept new enemies, face new challenges, and lift himself up as a warrior reborn. He may have a right to remain within the treaty provisions; he may be content to exist alone, with no involvement in the society around him. I say we can to better, that’s all. I say we have to do better. I say our existence is now threatened by our own indifference. And that ain’t why the Bible don’t mention us!
30 responses so far ↓
1 David Yeagley // Dec 16, 2010 at 6:29 pm
It isn’t as thought no one thought any thing was wrong at the time. Lots of people felt very uneasy about the Indian confrontation. The fact is, it is hard to tell who was out in the woods first, the missionaries or the explorers (economic adventurers, hunters, trappers, etc.) Christian missionaries tend always to be on the cutting edge, historically. Then comes business. Sometimes there’s a partnership.
2 Pamela K. // Dec 16, 2010 at 7:34 pm
What nation of the world was in 1798 rising into power, giving promise of strength and greatness, and attracting the attention of the world?
Egypt.
In 1798, the French Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte led a brief invasion of Egypt.
He and his troops were defeated in 1801 by a combination of Ottoman, Mamluk, and British forces. After this invasion was repelled, came several years of internal anarchy in which Ottomans, Mamluks, and Albanians, in the service of the Ottomans, wrestled for power. Out of this chaos, the commander of the Albanian regiment, Muhammad Ali (Kavalali Mehmed Ali Pasha) emerged as a dominant figure and in 1805 was acknowledged by the Sultan in Istanbul as his viceroy in Egypt. However, Ottoman power in Egypt was finished, and Muhammad Ali, an ambitious and able leader, established a dynasty that was to rule Egypt until the revolution of 1952.
Muhammad Ali Pasha al-Mas’ud ibn Agha (Arabic: محمد علي باشا) (Mehmet Ali Pasha in Albanian; (4 March 1769 – 2 August 1849) was an Albanian who became Wāli, and self-declared Khedive of Egypt and Sudan.
Okay. You are probably wondering what is relevant here. The answer is Islam.
The events of 1798 would eventually transform this obscure backwater nation into an Islamic Dynasty.
Fast forward to 2010. Egypt is gripped in a resurgence of another powerful Islamic Dynasty. Like ” a beast rising up out of the land itself” with two horns stretching out in opposite directions, the influence of militant Islam is stretching from Egypt across Arabia and the Middle East, north to Russia, and farther east to Mongolia and Southeast Asia,
Australia, and New Zealand; and like another horn, to the west, across North Africa, into the Balkans and Europe, and across the ocean to North and South America. No country is without Islamic representation or the influence of Muslim culture. Even remote regimes like North Korea and China are dealing with Islamic countries.
Furthermore, Obama made a point to address the Muslim World from the hotbed of Islamic militancy-the University of Cairo-where another radical, Iman Rauf-claims to have written his speech for him!
It is my personal believe that the two verses which precede Revelation 13:11 seem to be addressing the perilous situation which is unfolding right before our eyes.
“If anyone is able to hear, let him listen. Whoever leads into captivity will himself go into captivity; if anyone slays with the sword, with the sword he must be slain. Herein is the call for the patience and the faith and fidelity of the saints, God’s people.” Revelation 13: 9, 10
3 David Yeagley // Dec 16, 2010 at 8:31 pm
I know there are innumerable interpretations of Bible prophecy. It’s a free country. Free enterprise in all things, all pursuits. That’s just the way it is.
The Adventist interpretation of Rev.13 did not originate with Adventist people, but was generated by cumulative study of main line Protestant demoninations. There was a Muslim interpretation of cetain passages in Daniel and Revelation in earlier Adventism (long before 1863 when the Seventh-day Adventist church was organized. Remember, Adventism was an interdenominational movement until after 1844.) France, Egypt, Turkey, etc. were believed to be in prophecy. But this never became part of the SDA doctrine or beliefs.
Josiah Litch, in the early Advent movement, predicted (in 1838) the fall of the Ottoman Empire based (Aug. 11, 1840) based on these interpretations. It’s all a fascinating enterprise.
Subsequent to this event, however, I don’t know of any SDA interpretation of scripture that identifies Islam, or any role it plays. It seems that Islam a major smoke screen for something deeper and worse, if that’s possible in the eyes of God…
I have to say, right now, the SDA church is reaching out to Muslims like it was the last mission on earth! This troubles me, personally, but, I’m not near the heart beat of the church on many subjects. I don’t fully understand why the church does the things it does, sometimes.
4 Pamela K. // Dec 16, 2010 at 10:15 pm
I feel that Islam has a significant role in End Times prophecy, however, I agree with you that it is like a smoke screen for something deeper and worse… perhaps the widely accepted worship of soulish man and nature instead of God?
I am currently reading the book, “Occult America: The Secret History Of How Mysticism Shaped Our Nation” By Mitch Horowitz.
Did you know that Abraham Lincoln held seances to try and contact his dead son while in the White House? And, that the Latin maxim that surrounds the unfinished pyramid on The Great Seal found on the dollar bill,” Annuit Coeptis Novus Ordo Seclorum” or “God Smiles On Our New Order Of The Ages” is part of Masonic philosophy?
In fact, The Great Seal was not put on the dollar bill until initiated by Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1935. He was a Mason as was his Vice President Henry A. Wallace. The author of “Occult America” describes Freemasonry as a “cryptic religious order with liberal values.” While I am not too familiar with the beliefs of the Freemasons, I do know that most evangelical Christians believe a history of Freemasonry within a family’s genealogy will bring a curse on that particular family.
Anyway, most of the spiritualist movement of the19th and 20th century in America was either advocated by, or linked to, those who expounded progressive, or liberal political beliefs. History has a tendency to repeat itself. Remember First Lady Hillary Clinton attempting to communicate with the spirit of Eleanor Roosevelt? God only knows what goes on behind closed doors in the White House these days!
5 David Yeagley // Dec 16, 2010 at 10:36 pm
Grandpa George was a 32 Degree Mason! I have his pass books, or ID card booklets. They’re like passports or something. A Comanche Mason. Incredible, eh? He was also member of Carpenters Union, and was quite a craftsman. I have some first cousins that knew him better than I. I must find out more.
I have many, many letters and legal papers between him and the US Congress. This is all very deep…
6 Pamela K. // Dec 17, 2010 at 8:32 am
Back on topic, the Bible does not mention a lot of people, however, All People and this includes American Indians have a part in the Kingdom of Heaven if they choose to believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
“Wait and listen, everyone who is thirsty! Come to the waters; he who has no money, come, buy and eat! Yes, come, buy priceless spiritual wine and milk without money and without price, simply for the self-surrender that accepts the blessing.” Isaiah 55:1
And this corresponding verse from the New Testament:
“And He further said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty, I, Myself will give water without price from the fountains of the water of life.” Revelation 21:6
“Water without price”. There is no spiritual catch here. You just have to place your trust and your faith in Jesus!
In the same chapter of Isaiah, the prophet writes,
“Behold, you Israel, shall call nations that know you not, and nations that do not know you shall run to you because of the Lord your God, and of the Holy One of Israel, for He has glorified you.” Isaiah 55:5
In the next verse, the reader is challenged to “Seek, inquire for, and require the Lord while He may be found, claiming Him by necessity and by right; call upon Him while He is near.”
Isaiah 55:6
“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Romans 3:23
There is nothing and no one that can make us righteous before God accept Jesus. Yet, even in the early church, St. Paul admonished believers in Galatia for succumbing to the idea that their salvation hinged on following a set of rules (legalism).
“Are you so foolish and so senseless and silly? Having begun your new spiritual life with the Holy Spirit, are you now reaching perfection by dependence on the flesh?” Galatians 3:3
He went on to say:
“And all who depend on the Law, who are seeking to be justified by obedience to the Law of rituals, are under a curse and doomed to disappointment and destruction, for it is written in the Scriptures, the man or woman in right standing with God shall live by and out of faith.”
Galatians 3:10, 11
7 Thrasymachus // Dec 17, 2010 at 11:22 am
This is a story of a collective repressed memory.
Whenever an event in life is too painful to remember, the human mind represses it.
Those Whites who are of a Nazi-like mentality would likely actually brag about the decimation of the Indian population; they certainly would not think of denying it. Those others who want to be Christian and see themselves as totally innocent in the sight of God would repress those memories in a collective manner.
I have only learned recently about the actual numbers of American Indians in Colonial times. These numbers were previously very vague and uncertain in my mind. I found out more accurate data while listening to this Hopi Indian talking about the decline in American Indian population from 60,000,000 to 800,000:
America is dying from within. Hopi Indian prophecy
What I do not know still is how many Europeans arrived, and in what numbers, from the Mayflower up to 1800 – 1850. In other words, I do not know the data, in graph form, to show the picture of the increase in the European population in America, alongside the graph showing the decrease in the American Indian population.
I only want to know the TRUTH.
War and bloodshed and famine and disease are all part of History. Human life is very fragile.
The same Christians who cannot face the facts about the American Indian population also had great difficulty accepting other historical facts, e.g., the plagues, such as the Black Death, that nearly wiped out human life in Europe. It is difficult to reconcile these harsh realities with religion.
This has always been the chief quarrel with religion: how can a good and loving God allow such suffering? Human suffering has always been a difficult subject for theologians.
I am definitely not happy or pleased with what took place when Indians and Whites fought each other brutally, but I prefer not to deny the truth. Life is precious. Life demands respect. God is the God of Life and the Living:
“He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.” — Luke 20:38
This Hopi Elder speaks about the past — even the tragic past — in an honest and calm and reasonably untroubled manner. Obviously, he mourns the loss of life, but he remains clear-headed enough to speak rationally about these events. This is the correct attitude.
8 Thrasymachus // Dec 17, 2010 at 11:32 am
Personally, I have difficulty seeing anything clearly pertaining to the United States in Bible prophecy. But then, again, I am not a student of such things.
Russia is mentioned, I have been told, by name.
One thing we do know: the Earth was originally a single continent; the pieces fit together like a jigsaw puzzle. It was later divided. (1 Chronicles 1:19).
I still accept, — at least I think I do! — the conclusion of Bible scholar J. Vernon McGee, that the United States will not be an empire or major power in the last days. This would also concur with the Hopi Indian in the above Youtube presentation.
Massive, ever-increasing miscegenation seems to be a favorite way God uses to bring down an empire or a nation. This is the very cause of the fall and disappearance of ancient Philistia, the chief enemy of ancient Israel. (It also played a part, I believe, in the fall of the Roman Empire.)
9 Pamela K. // Dec 17, 2010 at 1:30 pm
God gave all human beings the gift of a free will. Unfortunately, the human condition is essentially wicked, and therefore, many humans use their gift of a free will to hurt and destroy other people. Furthermore, the world system is under the domination of Satan and his angels, and as you can see, their influence in the lives and affairs of mankind, is everywhere.
Why does God allow disease? Why does he allow an innocent little child to suffer from an incurable cancer?
Again, people are quick to blame God for suffering, yet, we live in a lost and fallen world, and where there is sin, there is also disease and pestilence and famine. God does not want to see anyone, either child or adult, suffer from cancer
And again, it is a matter of faith.
The late preacher Oral Roberts was confronted with this question once as a guest on a talk show.
Why does God allow suffering?
Instead of giving a direct response, Roberts told the audience that as a young minister he had been at a tent revival meeting. During the healing service, two little boys were brought up to the altar for prayer and healing. One child was healed miraculously. The other child remained the same. Roberts said that this incident bothered him for years. He often prayed for an answer and the only answer he received is that it had to do with the faith of the parents. the surrendering of their will, to God’s will, trusting Him for the right outcome.
I believe God always answers our prayers. He does not always answer in the way we want, but in the way that He knows is best for our lives. God sees what we do not see.
Another reason why certain people will not heal is because they are harboring unconfessed sin. One of the greatest is the sin of unforgiveness. Harboring bitterness and resentment towards someone whose wronged you, or being incapable of forgiving yourself for something you’ve done is one of the leading causes of illness, both physical and mental. Women who have had abortions fall into this category. Although they have asked God to forgive them, they cannot forgive themselves. This feeling of false guilt is often coupled with the spirit of unbelief. They cannot believe that God has forgiven them.
Another cause of people not healing is that their family labors under a spiritual curse. It might not have anything to do with them personally, but has come down to them through their family line.
The good news is that Jesus came to set the captives free. And we can find hope and healing in Him, if we choose to surrender our will at the foot of His Cross.
10 Thrasymachus // Dec 17, 2010 at 2:16 pm
Many people find it very difficult to forgive. I know, as I am certainly one of them. However, this prayer does wonders:
“Lord Jesus, in Your name I forgive all others for what they have done against me.”
If anyone prays that every day, forgiveness will come about.
Based on what you have written, Pamela, one might also add:
“I accept, Lord, that You have forgiven me; and therefore, I now forgive myself.”
This entire prayer should be prayed every day — even three times a day, if need be — until forgiveness is fully established and the wounds to the soul have completely healed.
11 Thrasymachus // Dec 17, 2010 at 2:29 pm
In fact, forgiveness can be so difficult that, for not a few people, it is the most difficult thing that they will be called upon to do in this life.
12 ELIAKIM // Dec 17, 2010 at 3:22 pm
Rev 13 is certainly about the USA. Obama is the LEO the LEOPARD from Africa. The one that has feet like a bear (communist tread), speaks like a LIon (like a christian) etc etc…
As the USA is the land of ESAU and the men of EDOM it does not bode well for the the USA.
Of course the bible talks about the USA, it speaks of all nations and the TRIBES in respect of the last days of the end times.
I haven’t found a single Christian yet that can give me a single prophecy in the OT that relates to Jesus Christ for discussion.
They say Zechariah 11 is about Jesus Christ but when you look at the prophecy criteria it clearly isn’t.
I have spoken to a Jewish Rabbi and a Jewish sage and they don’t know what it is about either.
When you were doing theology David did you do an historical, timeline and prophecy criteria analysis of Zech 11? What conclusions did you come to?
Thrasmyachus forgiveness is easy for those that begin the spiritual healing path home to God because when people begin to heal the Christ walks with you. Hand in hand, side by side.
The heart is FOR GIVING…..
Alas, few people have moved their energies into their hearts because most are what the bible calls to slaves to the elemental spiritual forces that they allow to control and dominate their lives.
Few have ascended out of a purely earthly reality.
As the Christ told the Apostles, the Kingdom of Heaven is here but you do not see it. Why couldn’t they see it? They were still ascending out of the purely earthly state of being.
13 ELIAKIM // Dec 17, 2010 at 3:26 pm
Rev 17 and Rev 18 is also about the USA it is the only nation that fits the criteria of the prophecy.
14 ELIAKIM // Dec 17, 2010 at 3:35 pm
Pamela
“God gave all human beings the gift of a free will. Unfortunately, the human condition is essentially wicked, and therefore, many humans use their gift of a free will to hurt and destroy other people. Furthermore, the world system is under the domination of Satan and his angels, and as you can see, their influence in the lives and affairs of mankind, is everywhere.”
Goodness gracious me Pamela is that what you have been taught by the Church and parents?
Christ taught original goodness and perfection within. Its a great pit that the Church did not let you see all of the Gospels that were written about him.
Do you even know what it meant to be wicked in biblical times?
It meant all of you that live in houses and do not put a root over those that are homeless, all of you that do not go out and feed the poor, put clothes on their backs and shoes on the feet of the orphans.
It means all of you that do not live ecologically and self-sustainably like the Essenes and the prophets, all of you that do not look after the Creators, creation.
Now check out DARTH VADER because Abba gave that as a new analogy for what you Christians call Satan.
15 Thrasymachus // Dec 17, 2010 at 3:50 pm
Here is an article I found helpful on Forgiveness.
16 ELIAKIM // Dec 17, 2010 at 4:30 pm
Inner child healing is the best healing modality for healing unforgiveness. That is why the Christ said that you have to be like a child to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. First you redeem the divine child within, then you redeem the divine feminine, then you are ready to rise to meet our divine Father.
17 ELIAKIM // Dec 17, 2010 at 4:32 pm
Why was healing the child within so important? Christ knew that if people do not heal the heart then truth cannot enter in.
18 Thrasymachus // Dec 17, 2010 at 6:08 pm
Yes, the “inner child” can be wounded. When you pray, in Jesus’ Name, to forgive ALL others for what they have done against you, beginning with those grievances that are hurting you most at the present, you will eventually heal all the hurts from your childhood past as well. God’s grace and healing power is at work in all this.
It is important to keep in mind that forgiveness is a process; it is something you need to practice on a daily basis, even if your major issues with forgiveness happened a long time ago, as in early childhood.
19 David Yeagley // Dec 17, 2010 at 9:24 pm
I was gone all day today (in Comanche headquarters), and missed all this. My! What fascinating discussion!
I’m afraid I’ll mess everything up by making further comments!
Personally, I don’t really understand forgiveness. i see it as an incomprehensible concept. Certainly, it is the main line of God. I pray I can experience it. But, I have no intellectual concept or understanding of it. I see it as utterly impossible, contrary to reality as I know reality. It is beyond reality. It is not reality.
Lourdes Morales Gudmunsson has a book on it: I Forgive You, But… (2007), but I still can’t digest it, intellectually. This is probably one of the very best books on the subject, too, translated into a number of different languages now.
As I said, I just pray that I experience it, in the way God designs I should. It seems completely untouchable to me, in words, or in mind. It is some other dimension.
20 David Yeagley // Dec 17, 2010 at 9:31 pm
E.: Christ taught original goodness and perfection within
Mysticism of a sort, E. Almost spiritualism.
I did study the Bible at Yale Divinity. I know about the extra-scriptural texts. There are many, and they somehow continue to multiply.
I wrote a paper called, “Pharisaical Objections” in which I tabulated and organized every objection recorded in the “KJV” gospel narratives anyway, and found that all possible contradictions were exhausted therein.
It is the magic of the Bible that it has all bases covered. Objections to Christ (the New Testament Christ) are depleted therein. Moreover, it seemed to me that in the Pharisaical objections are categorized all objections of infidelity or perversion against the Old Testament as well.
I study the Bible very, very carefully. Every form of unbelief (whether open defiance or hidden, deceptive contradiction–professing belief) is found in the Old Testament, then again in the New.
Unbelief is identified. There are no havens for deception in the light of the Word. Unbelief has already been manifested in all possible forms.
So, you see, I appear quite contradictory, myself!
21 Thrasymachus // Dec 18, 2010 at 9:44 am
“As I said, I just pray that I experience it, in the way God designs I should. It seems completely untouchable to me, in words, or in mind. It is some other dimension.”
—————————————————
It’s difficult sometimes because we think that in forgiving we are approving of what the offender has done and saying that they deserve to be forgiven. Some psychiatrists or religious leaders say that offenders do deserve to be forgiven, others say that offenders do not deserve to be forgiven.
But we forgive on an entirely different basis. Whether those who have wronged us deserve to be forgiven or not, we choose to forgive.
One very rational basis for doing so is that our mental and physical health will improve. Unforgiveness holds a poison — literally, a toxic chemistry — within our system. Forgiveness is letting go of, maybe even renouncing in some cases, the desire to punish the offender, or have them punished. It is a matter of canceling a debt. Sometimes that debt is actually money, if this has been taken from us unjustly; more often, it is a moral debt. The person who forgives simply says, within his mind, “I no longer demand payment of this debt; I no longer demand that you be punished. I no longer even want to see you punished.” This involves compassion in many cases.
It is difficult to do because it contradicts our sense of justice. We have to accept a loss or debit. But we gain inner strength and healing in return. The toxicity of repressed anger can cause great harm to the body — heart attacks, and possibly even cancer. It is not fully known yet what all the results of holding anger may be. It certainly keeps the mind locked in the past and makes it difficult to make the best and wisest decisions in the present. Thus we will do wisely to obey the Scripture that tell us not to let the Sun go down on our wrath — i.e., do not hold it inside and allow it to invade the living tissues of the body.
Also, forgiveness involves things over and done with. If a wrong is being carried out in the present moment, the anger needed to motivate us to put a stop to it and to deal effectively with the situation is justified. This is righteous anger.
It is not a sin to become angry; it is a sin to remain forever angry.
22 Thrasymachus // Dec 18, 2010 at 10:04 am
It takes enormous strength to forgive. We are required to accept a loss or an injury we do not deserve. The wrong-doer has not kept his or her part of the “bargain,” morally speaking, and, to forgive, we have to accept this and the price-tag it involves. It costs us something in terms of our earthly life.
Here is Lao Tzu’s “definition” of forgiveness and what it costs a person:
“The sage accepts less than is due
And does not blame or punish;
For harmony seeks agreement
Where justice seeks payment.”
That “accepts less than is due” is why it is so hard to forgive. We want what is owed to us. We want others to hold up their end of their bargains with us. Therefore, forgiveness is costly to us, as we must allow ourselves to be short-changed. But health and freedom are gained when we practice forgiveness.
23 Thrasymachus // Dec 18, 2010 at 10:24 am
Here is Chan’s translation of that “chapter” :
79
To patch up great hatred is surely to leave some hatred behind. How can this be regarded as good?
Therefore the sage keeps the left-hand portion (obligation) of a contract And does not blame the other party.
Virtuous people attend to their left-hand portions, While those without virtue attend to other people’s mistakes.
“The Way of Heaven has not favourites. It is always with the good man.”
The point being that if the other person does not keep his or her end of the bargain — his or her obligation, the sage accepts this loss and injury and still keeps his own obligations. This is forgiveness — this is VERY hard to do.
Richard Wilhelm expresses a related thought as follows: “Where Confucius holds that one must respond to life with life, and to anger with correctness, Lao Zi says: “Respond to anger with Life.” That “Life” means also the Life Force.
24 Thrasymachus // Dec 18, 2010 at 10:27 am
“Lao Zi says: “Respond to anger with Life.” That “Life” means also the Life Force.”
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This is why, as Christians, we turn to the Lord Jesus to find the power and strength to forgive. Jesus is the Life in us that enables us to forgive.
25 Thrasymachus // Dec 18, 2010 at 10:35 am
Wilhelm’s translation of “chapter” 79 is as follows:
79
“Versöhnt man großen Groll
und es bleibt noch Groll übrig,
wie wäre das gut?
Darum hält der Berufene sich an seine Pflicht
und verlangt nichts von anderen.
Darum: Wer LEBEN hat,
hält sich an seine Pflicht,
Wer kein LEBEN hat,
hält sich an sein Recht.”
In English:
79
“If one placates great anger
and yet there remains anger:
how could this be good?
Therefore the Man of Calling adheres to his duty
and demands nothing of others.
Therefore: whoever has Life
adheres to his duty;
whosoever does not have Life
adheres to his right.”
– translated by H. G. Ostwald
Wilhelm translates the Chinese word DE (often rendered in English as “Power”) as Life, based on John 1:4 : “In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.”
26 Thrasymachus // Dec 18, 2010 at 1:34 pm
The Wilhelm translation of the “Lao Tzu” is of interest because the translator provides a rather detailed explanation of the meaning of the text, as that meaning was taught to him by actual Chinese scholars during his sojourn and studies in China. These scholars worked with him on the translation, so that he had to be able to reverse the translation, mentally, from the German to the original Chinese for verification and accuracy.
27 ELIAKIM // Dec 18, 2010 at 9:57 pm
Thrasymachus the one known as Jesus Christ communed with Abba he did not pray to himself.
There is a huge difference between god and God. Only those that have seen them both truly know the difference.
You can pray all that you like but unless you take the step on the healing path home to God people don’t get very far on the highway to holiness.
You are co-creators time for humanity to understand that the Christ is within.
David I recommend two books for you.
1. “The Homecoming” by John Bradshaw.
2. “You can heal your life” by Louise Hay
Last but not least, I recommend that you check out the scientific papers on forgiveness from http://www.heartmath.com
“Forgiveness is an act of compassion for self, for you are the only one that is truly harmed by unforgiveness.” from Sacred Words
“A giving heart, Is a forgiving heart. The heart is for giving.” from Sacred Words
28 Thrasymachus // Dec 19, 2010 at 7:09 am
” “Forgiveness is an act of compassion for self, for you are the only one that is truly harmed by unforgiveness.” from Sacred Words
“A giving heart, Is a forgiving heart. The heart is for giving.” from Sacred Words”
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I entirely agree!
29 Thrasymachus // Dec 19, 2010 at 7:17 am
Prayer of St. Francis
Lord, make me an instrument of Your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.
O, Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek
to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive;
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
30 ELIAKIM // Dec 19, 2010 at 7:37 am
Great prayer Thrasymachus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foheMBXALI0
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